Sunday, January 09, 2005

marxism and lack of guarantees--manipulating language

In looking back a couple of posts, I have this total "duh!" moment: I still need to read Marx as a primary text in order to answer my questions re: Larrain and Hall's readings of Marx. *rolls eyes*

I left off on Hall's use of more recent theorists/theories in relation to Marxism. In this regard Hall tends to address theories of language and discourse. This depends on language as the vehicle for ideology. Language is not fixed; it is multi-referential. Hall argues that this is implicit in Marx's beliefs about market exchange--"It would be distinctly odd if there were no category allowing us to think, speak, and act in relation to it." Hall believes that the two approaches to understanding theory (discursive versus...what is the other approach called? materialist???) are not necessarily contradictory, as the latter could be said to be about displacing the discourse of the bourgeois political economy and to replace it with a discourse that fits into the Marxist schema.

I think that Hall goes on to argue for this discursive approach because he feels it "means that our grasp is concrete and whole, rather than a thin, one-sided abstraction." He says this because "the economic relations themselves cannot prescribe a single, fixed and unalterable way of concpetualizing it"--it being the market. The market, he argues, can be "'expressed' within different ideological discourses. And while I tend to agree with him, I feel as though his argument is a bit flimsy in that it is kind of an illusion itself--a slight of hand. He takes issue with Marx's use of the terms "real" and "false," arguing that it is misleading in an all-or-nothing way between True and False, and yet he doensn't support Marx's use of them in such a way. How to say Marx didn't allow for the variations of meaning in "true"/"false" (i.e. "partial" and "adequate") that Hall argues for?

Hall follows this by dismantling the idea of ruling ideas as being those of the ruling class. He does this by referencing Laclau's work, which claims that classes are not the subjects of fixed and ascribed class ideologies. Laclau also argued that particular ideas and concepts do not belong exclusively to one particular class. This argument is also built of ideas of language and discourse. Again, returning to the idea of langauge as fluid and "multi-accentual," language is constantly intersecting variously oriented social classes. Volosinov argues, "Sign becomes the arena of the class struggle." Hall writes, "This approach replaces the notion of fixed ideological meanings and class-ascribed ideologies witht he concepts of ideological terrains of struggle and the task of ideological transformation." But Hall also tries to hold onto the problem of the class structuring of ideology (he doesn't want to throw the baby out with the bath water and seems careful not to do this). And he achieves this by drawing on Gramsci who argued that "ideological struggle does not take place by displacing one whole, integral, class-mode of though with another wholly-formed system of ideas." Hall writes:
Certainly it is not a form of vulgar materialism to say that, though we cannot ascirbe dieas to class position in certain fixed combinations, ideas do arise from and may reflect the material conditions in which social groups and classes exist.
I like this take, though I do see that it relies entirely upon the arguments of Laclau, which can also be argued against. Hall sticks with Gramsci in his reading of Marx's relationship between ruling ideas/ruling classes by writing that this relationship is best understood through Gramsci's concept of hegemonic domination, which Hall makes clear is about the process of attaining that domination. This historical bloc which has acquired power is the object of the exercise.
Hall closes "The problem if ideology: marxism without guarantees" by stating what the economic cannot do:
  • provide the contents of the particular thoughts of particular social classes or groups at a specific time
  • fix or guarantee for all of time which ideas will be made use of by which classes
  • effect an final closure on the domain of ideology
  • cannot secure correspondences between particular classes according to their place within a system

In the end he puts it this way: It would be preferable to think of "materialism" through determination by the economic in the first instance (as opposed to the last). Again, I like this idea and its escape from the reductionism and determinism of an orthodox Marxist perspective.


3 comments:

Anonymous said...

the following is an e-mail exchange based on the related blog entry, which ended with the "reductionism and determinism of an orthodox Marxist perspective." Mark took issues with these "isms"--as noted in the exhange below:

Subject: Re: Lurking on your Blog
From: jm2313@albany.edu
Date: Thu, January 13, 2005 12:05 pm
To: md4681@albany.edu
Priority: Normal
Options: View Full Header | View Printable Version | Bounce




lol. i think it is great that you're spying on my blog. that is, after
all, why it is on the internet as opposed to in a journal in my bedroom
(i'd be a little upset if you were spying on that one!). and i figured
you'd take issue with that statement. i'm definitely conflicted over all
of this, and i'm easily swayed--when reading an orthodox Marxist
perspective, i'm totally won over, but i always end up feeling trapped by
it. when reading Hall (or other post-Marxist-type critics) i am
enamoured, though i try to fight it each step of the way:)

further thoughts are embedded.... warning: i ask a lot of questions.
and hey--maybe next time you read my blog, consider posting to the blog
itself, that way if i can ever get other folks reading it, they can enter
into the dialogue as well--that is my goal here eventually.

see ya,
jenn

> Jen--
>
> "from the reductionism and determinism of an orthodox Marxist perspective"
>
> Can we just talk about this a bit? ;)
>
> Sorry that I'm totally spying on your Blog, but it helps me remember stuff
> I did read, once, and forgot since.
>
> But despite the emoticon, I do totally take issue with both "isms" above,
> in re: this issue of "ideology." The way I read Marx's conception here is
> that Bourg & Prol develop (dialectically) only with the development of the
> social structure (capitalism) which requires an ideology which disguises
> the downsides of that social structure.

okay, my questions here: What are the downsides of the social structure?
I suppose a Marxist would say that the downsides are strictly economic and
tied to exploitation at the level of production. So how is this not
reductionist? And, who gets to recognize the "disguise"/ideology that you
speak of? We do? An elite group of intellectuals?

There's two consequences to this
> reading, I think-- one, this is a "neutral" conception because the
> ideology develops alongside class, not as a tool of one class's domination
> (although it comes to serve that role later);

so are you saying here that Laclau and Marx are essentially saying the
same thing? that ideas and concepts do not belong exclusively to one
particular class? or no? (you also reference this in the next paragraph,
below, when you talk about class ideologies not being "in" a class). I
guess I'm just not sure what you're getting at here. Do you agree that
there exists (as I believe Marx does....or maybe I'm wrong about this, not
sure) an ideological unity of classes or not? I guess the underlying
question here--the one I can't seem to get a straight answer to (probably
because I've not consulted Marx directly on this one) is: Is Marx's
concept of ideology equivalent to "the ruling ideas"? Are the ruling
ideas those of the ruling class? Hall argues that this IS Marx's
conception of ideology, but Larrain seems to have a different reading.
Also, don't both negative and neutral versions of ideology exist within
Marx's ideas/marxism? I guess that what I'm getting at here is that your
above reading of ideology through Marx doesn't seem to cover enough
ground. And, if ideology is "disguising" the downsides of capitalism,
doesn't that imply a distortion of thought and ideological ideas as a
distorted idea? And if so, isn't that a negative (not neutral) conception
of ideology?

and two, the Bourg aren't
> "duped" too, because the system *does* work for them the way the ideals
> say it will (just not for the Prol).

Okay, I think I really put this the wrong way...or something. It's not
that I think the Bourg are duped; it's that I think the Prol is not
"duped" to the extent that Marx may think they are/or have been??? I'm
not sure about this, but...I am trying to call into question, as Hall
does, Marx's idea of "false consciousness."

>
> When Marx discusses conflicts in ideologies between classes, i think he's
> always referring to the (current/future) difficulty of a proletarian
> revolution and/or the (past) difficulties of the liberal revolution (over
> aristocratic ideologies), not conflict between Bourg and Prol within
> capitalist ideology.

You've lost me here.... How is a proletarian revolution not part of a
conflict between Bourg and Prol within capitalism? I don't get it. I
guess you clarify this with what follows, but I'm not keeping up. I think
I get it, but what is this about a different class structure? What is the
goal here? To not have that structure at all?

I don't think Marx meant that "class" ideologies
> referred to everyone "in" a class thinking the same way--just that those
> are the ideas that shaped and formed (and made possible!) the existence of
> the class. There's no ground for competition or conflict, then, between
> proletarian and bourgeois "within" capitalist ideology. Only between
> capitalist ideology and revolutionary communist/socialist ideology (as the
> ideology of a possible future set of social relations which entail an
> entirely different class structure).
>
> How's that?
>
> --md
>
>


--


Download this as a file

VTmtngrrl said...

> and hey--maybe next time you read my blog, consider posting to the blog
itself, that way if i can ever get other folks reading it, they can enter
> into the dialogue as well--that is my goal here eventually.

you wanna copy all this into the blog or response somehow? I'm open to
all comers.

> okay, my questions here: What are the downsides of the social
structure?
> I suppose a Marxist would say that the downsides are strictly economic
and
> tied to exploitation at the level of production. So how is this not
reductionist?

"strictly economic" -- for Marx, in my reading, "economic" is EVERYTHING
necessary for the reproduction of the members of a society AND the extant
social structure. Alienation. Objectification. Exploitation. Religion.
Philosophy. Art. Trump & "The Apprentice." Furbees. How is all that
"reductionist"?

But I'm not sure I'm being clear about "downsides." They're "upsides"
too. At the same time. Always. So... capitalism is really good at
developing vast sums of "capital" which can help develop technology,
infrastructure, etc... all of which is necessary for a socialist state.
But "developing vast sums of capital" = "expropriating vast sums of
labour." They're always exactly the same thing. And not just that one,
but all of them. Free market=unrestrained exploitation and domination by
the rich. Specialized labour (which leads to great progress and
efficiency) = monotony in labour. Proliferation of consumer choice = the
"horrible sameness of sameness." Is it reductionist b/c of those
syllogisms? I'd say that makes it more complex.

> And, who gets to recognize the "disguise"/ideology that you
> speak of? We do? An elite group of intellectuals?

There's no necessity that it's only "intellectuals." Marx certainly never
believed that. That's why the _Manifesto_ is addressed to "Workers of the
world." As you point out:

\\"for Marx there is no "cloud of knowing," (or at least this is what
Larrain claims about Marx) then it is not critical ideas or science that
will dispel ideological forms, it is political practices of
transformation."\
I'd only argue here that Marx sees those practices as a "science" of
historical materialism. That is praxis, in other words. There is a
question of "empowerment" in regard to that praxis, however. You and I
are highly empowered in regard to that in a way a lot of people aren't.
Not because we're "smarter," though. On the other hand, this may also be
an obstacle to the formation of a rev. prol, and that's one thing In which
I'm exceptionally interested.

>> There's two consequences to this
>> reading, I think-- one, this is a "neutral" conception because the
ideology develops alongside class, not as a tool of one class's
domination
>> (although it comes to serve that role later);
>
> so are you saying here that Laclau and Marx are essentially saying the
same thing?

NO! Laclau is a putz. Well, that's too strong, but he moved ideology
away from marx's ideas into thinking of the most broad and abstract
conceptions of "true" and "false." It becomes useless way out there. But
I'm thinking of "The Death and Resurrection of the Theory of Ideology."
You're reading something else.

>that ideas and concepts do not belong exclusively to one particular
class? or no? (you also reference this in the next
paragraph,
> below, when you talk about class ideologies not being "in" a class). I
guess I'm just not sure what you're getting at here. Do you agree that
there exists (as I believe Marx does....or maybe I'm wrong about this, not
> sure) an ideological unity of classes or not?

"that ideas and concepts do not belong exclusively to one particular class"

The notion of individual private property is a bourgeois one. Bourg and
Prol "classes" are not individuals which can "own" things, and neither can
exist objectively without the other. Also, "ownership" isn't some
ontological category, but the "legal"-authorized ability to use something
to expropriate value. Some members of a society are able to effectively
mobilize ideas to realize a positive gain in "value". For those that are
not, is it because they aren't as good at it? or because they don't "own"
the idea (don't recognize it? aren't aware of it? can't see the
truth/falsity of it?)? I say it's because the relationship the idea
describes is necessarily structured that way.

For example, the idea that the "marketplace" is a "free" competition of
"individuals". Both bourgeois and proletarian "have" this idea. But it
works (creates value) for one and not for the other (in general --- or at
least it preserves the structure which creates the two). One can "use" it
in a way the other can't. This one "idea" is in fact two very different
things - one for the bourg ("free competition"), one for the prol
(subjection to the whims of the marketplace). Is it "freedom" in the mill
town when the mill closes? It is for the owner. It's not for the
workers. Same idea, but has very different consequences for each. Yet
most of the people in this country believe that the "poor" are responsible
for their own failures. Few people question that the idea ("free
competition") itself may be at fault. That idea doesn't "belong" to the
Bourg, but it certainly serves and supports them in a way it won't for
anyone else. It certainly impacts workers who believe in it as well, but
in a very different way.

> I guess the underlying
> question here--the one I can't seem to get a straight answer to
(probably
> because I've not consulted Marx directly on this one) is: Is Marx's
concept of ideology equivalent to "the ruling ideas"? Are the ruling
ideas those of the ruling class?

[B.Clinton] What do you mean by "of"? [/B.Clinton]
Sometimes that preposition refers to "ownership." But it doesn't have to.
The ideas that make the Bourg the "ruling class"--in fact, the ideas that
make them a "class" at all-- are the "ruling ideas" because they're the
ideas upon which our social, cultural, economic, and political systems are
based.

What does it mean for an "idea" to be a "ruling idea"? If I pit totally
different ideas aginst each other, I don't think this is going to work.
But if I take the same example as above and think how each part of that
syllogism-"free competition" & "unrestricted exploitation"-and imagine the
two of them wrestling, then we get to something. The "ruling ideas" are
"ruling" in the sense that one way of conceiving a relationship is more
prevalent than another way of conceiving the same relationship. I.e.
individual ownership instead of expropriation of labour.

> I guess that what I'm getting at here is that your
> above reading of ideology through Marx doesn't seem to cover enough
ground.

Any better now?

> And, if ideology is "disguising" the downsides of capitalism,
> doesn't that imply a distortion of thought and ideological ideas as a
distorted idea? And if so, isn't that a negative (not neutral)
conception
> of ideology?

No, I think, because it seems to me that "negative" requires some kind of
subjective actor aware of the "truth" working to foster the "diguise" or
"distortion." There's no such culprit, here. The "distorted" way of
viewing relationships like I discussed above are really useful and
beneficial for the most powerful members of our society. The other ways
are not.


> Okay, I think I really put this the wrong way...or something. It's not
that I think the Bourg are >duped; it's that I think the Prol is not
"duped" to the extent that Marx may think they are/or have >been??? I'm
not sure about this, but...I am trying to call into question, as Hall
does, Marx's idea >of "false consciousness."

This goes back to that whole empowerment and "ownership" idea. It's a
hell of a lot harder for the proletariat to *do* anything with a different
conception of social relations (get at some "practices of political
transformation"). So they might sense that these ideas aren't right or
good or don't work the way they're supposed to, but that's still a long
way from "realizing" and acting on a different conception.

But anyway, I know this sounds awful, but did you see the results of the
last election? There are quite clearly a lot of people who buy into this
ultra-frightening "ideology" of "homeland security" for example, whereby
we give up due process, the protection from unlawful search and seizure,
the right to an attorney, the presumption of innocence, etc... all to make
us more "free" and "secure." Is that not a "distortion"? A "false
consciousness"?? Or even if we're only led to believe that a lot of other
people think that way, even if few actually do, isn't there still a major
"distortion"????


>> When Marx discusses conflicts in ideologies between classes, i think
he's
>> always referring to the (current/future) difficulty of a proletarian
revolution and/or the (past) difficulties of the liberal revolution (over
>> aristocratic ideologies), not conflict between Bourg and Prol within
capitalist ideology.
>
> You've lost me here.... How is a proletarian revolution not part of a
conflict between Bourg and Prol within capitalism? I don't get it. I
guess you clarify this with what follows, but I'm not keeping up. I think
> I get it, but what is this about a different class structure? What is
the
> goal here? To not have that structure at all?

YES! To not have a class structure. The existence of a proletariat is
the destruction of "class." The rev.prol. are about destroying
"capitalism." Hence, their ideological conflict is *not* "within"
capitalism. This is not "reform socialism." Marx and Engels know that
can't work. The problem isn't the administration of capitalism. It is
the necessary foundation of capitalism. the foundation is always the
expropriation of labour. The expropriation of labour IS exploitation.
The only way to end that exploitation is to end "ownership," to end the
bourg conception of the "individual," to end the "free marketplace," and
thereby to end "classes" and the division of labour upon which our society
is built.

Good lord, what have I become?

-md

VTmtngrrl said...

Okay, one might argue (“one”-hahaha) that it is reductionist in your phrasing: “EVERYTHING.” I mean this is getting to be an age-old (I am not sure how old something has to be before it is age-old, but…) and ongoing debate, isn’t it? I mean you say it yourself, as any good Marxist would, the economic is “EVERYTHING.” You mention the extant social structure and its ties to the economic. You throw in Trump and Furbees for good measure and ask how that can be reductionist. Well, for me, it is not a matter of the number of things that the economic may account for; it is the other things whose accountability needs to be explored that are being left out. I mean for the first two seasons, Trump divided his teams female versus male, right? And, so you would argue that he did that because…why exactly? Because of the economic?

And in terms of upsides and downsides: Are you saying that it works like this? The downsides “belong to” (well you would say that can’t belong to, but for lack of a better term…) or affect the workers/prol, and at the same time, capitalism SUPPOSEDLY disguises these downsides from them, but the upsides are both enjoyed by and seen by the owners/bourg who can also see the downsides??? I see all of the syllogisms you make as compelling ones, and I’d say that they make capitalism (or any economic system for that matter) more complex, but that doesn’t necessarily let Marxism’s (potentially reductionist) approach to culture off the hook.

At numerous points you use the (good) example of the “marketplace” as “free” competition of individuals, and you say that both “groups” “have” this idea. (Ironically, I see that you are paying very close attention to analysis at the level of rhetoric in all of this, when I am the one supposedly “doing” rhet/comp--making me question the grouping of those two terms, but that is an aside….). You say that it is different, of course, for each of them: For bourg it is actually “free competition” and for the prol it is subjection to the whims of the marketplace, but is that *really* the idea that the prols “have”? Isn’t that more your recognition of their predicament. Their idea of “free” in the marketplace is something different, isn’t it? Like their power as consumers as opposed to producers. Again, you could argue that this idea of “free” necessarily includes a “distortion”/disguised downside, but it is still different from “subjection to the whims of the marketplace.”

I too am interested in this idea of what you (and Marx) call the formation of the revolutionary prols, but more importantly, interested in the obstacles which we mention in our e-mails--that is the ability to recognize the elements that capitalism disguises. But for me, this all needs to be related back to our students’ role(s) in the classroom. It becomes this balancing act between thinking we are somehow going to open their eyes and remove some kind of veil and knowing them as thinking/knowing empowered subjects who aren’t necessarily duped by the system.

Regarding your example concerning the last election and the ideology of homeland security: I am not questioning or arguing the idea of distortion (have I?), but I am rather skeptical of the term “false consciousness.” See--whose false consciousness? You just removed the veil for us (we give up due process, presumption of innocence, and myriad other civil liberties in exchange for supposed freedom and security). So you don’t have “false consciousness,” (in this instance) but others do, you’re arguing, with the results of the last election as your evidence. …hmmmm…. Well, still underlying all of this is my question of who gets to “see” and who doesn’t. So, distortion, yes, “false consciousness”--still not sure….

And addressing “distortion” more generally here within our “dialogue”--you’re losing me a little: You first argue that ideology, in its disguising of the downsides of capitalism (or anything else for that matter), is not a negative concept of ideology because there is not active subject aware of the “truth” or working to create the “distortion.” Okay, so where does the distortion come from? It’s inherent in the structure of the system? Where does that structure come from?